Controversial test helps screen future Helena teachers
By ALANA LISTOE - Independent Record - 06/29/08
Helena native Sarah Flemming wants to teach Helena students.But because of a controversial testing program, she didn’t make the grade.
More than 600 teachers applied for 24 positions with the Helena School District this year. Those are highly coveted jobs, due in part to Helena’s pay scale — the base rate is the highest in Montana — as well as the district’s reputation of having a proactive administration, a board of trustees that doesn’t mettle in the daily affairs of the schools and a superintendent the school community trusts as its leader.
To cull the unwieldy list of applicants, the Helena School District uses an online interview process called TeacherInsight. The questions are designed to determine style and classroom personality rather than knowledge of subject matter.
It’s not a typical test, though, because TeacherInsight doesn’t have any clear right or wrong answers. Instead, applicants are asked how they would handle particular situations.
But it’s those nebulous questions, and the fact the results are not made known, that have potential teachers like Flemming and retired local educators like Rita Williams questioning the process.
Williams thinks the testing tool is missing quality teachers seeking employment in Helena. “I’m seeing beautiful, talented and dedicated teachers not even getting interviews because of this test,” Williams said.
Others defend the screening tool, which has been used in Helena for two years. About 350 school districts across the country, including Helena and Missoula, use TeacherInsight, according to former school principal Gary Gordon, a strategic consultant for Gallup Consulting, the firm administering the test.
He believes the test provides a good indicator that those who score in the top tier will be good teachers.
“Talent is a concept many people struggle with,” Gordon said. “We aren’t in the business of assessing prior education. We attempt to assess the innate occurring thought pattern individuals display that is most like teachers who succeed in the classroom.”
Confusing criteria
After serving as valedictorian from Capital High School in 2000, Flemming graduated magna cum laude with a bachelor’s degree in English literature from Seattle University. She earned her master’s degree in education from Montana State University-Billings.
She took this educational path with the distinct plan to find a teaching job in the Queen City.
To get her foot in the door with the Helena School District, Flemming took a job this summer as an academic coach with the district’s Promoting Enriching Activities for Kids program, commonly called PEAK.
She filled out the district’s electronic application, which asks for standard information like experience and references. Then came TeacherInsight, a two-part, timed test that the district considers an initial interview.
The second portion of the test offers statements for applicants to rate according a scale of one to five, from strongly agreeing to strongly disagreeing.
But it’s the initial multiple-choice section that perplexes applicants who don’t make the first cut.
For example, one question asks applicants what they think the teacher’s responsibility is. The choices are: A) to set and maintain high standards for student work; B) to provide a variety of rich opportunities for each student; C) to hold each student accountable for her work; or D) to help each student find a way to succeed.
Another question asks how an applicant would feel if a student failed: A) I am disappointed; B) I am disappointed, but question how much effort the student invested in the class; C) I take it personally; or D) I feel badly, but I encourage the student to keep trying.
Flemming and Williams note that just about all of the answers are correct, which his why the test is frustrating.
Furthermore, applicants don’t receive the test results back.
Flemming assumed she didn’t score well, although she was never informed one way or the other by the district or Gallup Consulting.
Discouraged, she sent a letter to the board of trustees last month notifying them of her “unreserved faith in the effectiveness of the TeacherInsight Interview for screening candidates.”
“Perhaps it would be a good idea to test current faculty to get a baseline to help demonstrate whether or not this test is as valid as the district seems to believe it is,” she wrote.
Gordon said that’s how the test was developed after 40 years of research.
The philosophy behind the research was to find “outstanding” teachers. Studies were conducted on teachers identified as “outstanding,” measured by the effectiveness they have on their students.
The consulting firm went to work facilitating focus groups involving thousands of teachers from districts considered to be top in the country and ultimately developed a hypothesis, Gordon said. The agency also took a random sampling from a larger group and created a pilot interview it gave to both groups.
“We looked to see how the best teachers responded and how they responded differently than the other,” Gordon said.
The test is an instrument that measures the likelihood of the test-taker’s ability to be an effective teacher.
“It’s a predictor — not a guarantee — they’ll be an effective teacher,” Helena School District Superintendent Bruce Messinger said. “We’ll get content out of other things. It’s more about characteristics that predict highly effective teachers.”
Impartial interviewing
Clint Carlos, associate partner with Gallup, said not using tools like TeacherInsight can create flaws in the hiring process, such as knowing the person or how they look on paper.
“It opens the door for human bias to enter into the equation,” he said.
The most important message, Carlos added, is caring for kids.
“Kids come first,” he said. “I have to look out for the student ahead of the applicant.”
Carlos defined talent as naturally recurring pattern of thought, feeling or behavior that can be productively applied, and used professional athletes as an example.
“We accept the fact that Tiger Woods can gain new skills and knowledge to help him improve as a golfer … but his innate talent didn’t just show up one year,” Carlos wrote in an e-mail. “His talent is rooted in his competitive edge, his drive to succeed and his unmatched focus, which he has depended on throughout his life to get where he is.”
According to Gallup, teacher effectiveness is based upon the percent of students who demonstrated growth. That growth is based upon the student’s scores increasing in relationship to their assessments from year one to year two.
Gallup provides the district with the names of the teachers who, according to their answers, are most likely to be effective teachers — ultimately, who scored the best.
“It’s not perfect, but a good predictor,” Gordon said.
In a perfect world, Messinger says, the administration would interview all applicants, but the sheer volume makes that inefficient.
This is the second hiring season — which runs from February to June — that the district has used TeacherInsight. The two-year contract, with its price tag of $12,000, expires in December. The administration will evaluate the process to see if it’s getting the quality of teachers it expects.
“We’ll decide in the fall if the instrument is working for us,” Messinger said.
Applicants who score in the range determined by Gallup to likely be the most effective teachers are invited to participate in in-person interviews with administrators. Prospective teacher and Helena native Becky Krantz was one of those teachers.
Krantz, 24, took a long-term substitute position teaching English at Helena High School in February. She’d hoped her subbing gig would help ensure her a full-time position, but she still had to take the TeacherInsight test.
Many who have already put in time in with the district, like substitute teachers, are getting jobs in Helena schools. This year, 50 percent of new hires had some previous experience with the district, Messinger said. Last year, 31 of the 67 new employees had previous experience.
Krantz scored high enough to receive an interview, but hasn’t heard yet whether she has a position this fall.
Krantz said she doesn’t have a strong feeling about the test either way, although she said multiple-choice questions like those asked by TeacherInsight are hard to answer.
“You have your own qualifiers in your head,” she said. “It took me at least 35 minutes. It was somewhat lengthy, but I don’t remember feeling horrified after. But they never talked to me about it, so I don’t know how I did.”
In Helena, not all who work in the schools take the online interview. Substitute teachers are not required to take TeacherInsight. Messinger said they would be in an ideal world, but since substitutes are only in a classroom for a few days at a time they have less overall effect on the students.
Gordon said the standard at virtually any school district is different for a substitute than a full-time teacher. Substitutes are asked to follow lessons plans and keep order, he said, while the expectations are higher for full-time teachers.
In the dark
Gallup provides the scores to the district, which does not release results to candidates. While the process is frustrating to some applicants, Gallup said different people could be hired with different scores, depending upon the applicant pool.
“It’s meaningless without knowing the process,” Gordon said.
Flemming said she still wants to know how she scored.
“I asked repeatedly for my score, but they told me I couldn’t know,” Flemming said. “Dr. Messinger said he didn’t feel it would be beneficial.”
Carlos said teachers are allowed to retake the test once a year, but those who do typically don’t improve their scores, nor does amount of experience seem to be an overriding factor in how they score.
Flemming also is discouraged by the lack of communication between applicants and the district.
“They never tell you. There’s nothing to let you know your score isn’t high enough,” she said. “Helena is pretty notorious for not getting back to you at all.”
Bill Rasor, personal services administrator for the Helena schools, said the process just takes time and the district does send out notification letters.
“We usually don’t send them until we are pretty close to completing all our hiring,” he said. “Those letters should be coming out shortly because we are pretty close.”
Another experience
This is the first year Missoula is using TeacherInsight. Larry Johnson, human resources director for the district, describes it as “one piece of information we use to screen applicants.”
But managing the volume of applications isn’t the primary reason the Missoula School District uses the process; Johnson said it helps identify people who have a greater chance of being successful teachers. Missoula’s district had about 30 openings and a pool of 382 applicants.
Missoula has a one-year contract with Gallup, but Johnson said the plan is to use it for a couple years and revise if need be.
Administrative view
Ebbie Williams, 43 (no relation to retired teacher Rita Williams) has been teaching on and off for the past 15 years in various school districts, with much of that time spent as a substitute.
She recently accepted a position teaching life science and art at C.R. Anderson beginning this fall and said TeacherInsight was a good tool as part of the process.
“But it shouldn’t be the gateway to get into the district,” she said. “The questions they asked were insightful and made you think about where you are on issues.”
Messinger said he realizes the test isn’t the end-all, noting that principals can advocate, petition or lobby for a teacher they are familiar with who may have not made it into the TeacherInsight top tier.
“Academic preparation is important. But if they wouldn’t initially be included, we’ve told principals to tell us if we should consider other information,” he said.
He added that they’ll take “a double look” at candidates who are familiar to the school district.
Hawthorne Elementary Principal Deb Jacobsen started interviewing for administrative positions during a time when people hired were in the “good ol’ boys club.” She now facilitates all the elementary interviews district-wide and said TeacherInsight has helped bring in some great teachers.
“What we are trying to say (is) it isn’t who you know, it’s what you know,” Jacobsen said. “The ‘who you know’ cannot open the door — it’s who you are.”
How the district hires staff and uses TeacherInsight is a work in progress, she said, adding that administrators will refine the process so nobody is missed that would be wonderful in classrooms.
However, Jacobsen said the initial online test isn’t without frustrations, because she’s known some applicants she felt would have made great teachers but didn’t score high enough to be in the interview pool. She’s advocated for those teachers to be considered for face-to-face interviews, and sometimes — not every time — that has happened.
Helena High School Principal Greg Upham also said the online interview is proving to be a useful tool, but he’s reserving judgment on its effectiveness until it’s been in place for a few more years.
“I’ll always have the opportunity to hire who I want if they fill the need we have,” he said.
Upham added that it will take time to figure out the effectiveness of TeacherInsight by teachers’ performances in classrooms, measured by students’ growth.
“That happens through an evaluation process we do annually on each teacher,” he said.
Reporter Alana Listoe: 447-4081 or alanalistoe@helenair.com
More than 600 teachers applied for 24 positions with the Helena School District this year. Those are highly coveted jobs, due in part to Helena’s pay scale — the base rate is the highest in Montana — as well as the district’s reputation of having a proactive administration, a board of trustees that doesn’t mettle in the daily affairs of the schools and a superintendent the school community trusts as its leader.
To cull the unwieldy list of applicants, the Helena School District uses an online interview process called TeacherInsight. The questions are designed to determine style and classroom personality rather than knowledge of subject matter.
It’s not a typical test, though, because TeacherInsight doesn’t have any clear right or wrong answers. Instead, applicants are asked how they would handle particular situations.
But it’s those nebulous questions, and the fact the results are not made known, that have potential teachers like Flemming and retired local educators like Rita Williams questioning the process.
Williams thinks the testing tool is missing quality teachers seeking employment in Helena. “I’m seeing beautiful, talented and dedicated teachers not even getting interviews because of this test,” Williams said.
Others defend the screening tool, which has been used in Helena for two years. About 350 school districts across the country, including Helena and Missoula, use TeacherInsight, according to former school principal Gary Gordon, a strategic consultant for Gallup Consulting, the firm administering the test.
He believes the test provides a good indicator that those who score in the top tier will be good teachers.
“Talent is a concept many people struggle with,” Gordon said. “We aren’t in the business of assessing prior education. We attempt to assess the innate occurring thought pattern individuals display that is most like teachers who succeed in the classroom.”
Confusing criteria
After serving as valedictorian from Capital High School in 2000, Flemming graduated magna cum laude with a bachelor’s degree in English literature from Seattle University. She earned her master’s degree in education from Montana State University-Billings.
She took this educational path with the distinct plan to find a teaching job in the Queen City.
To get her foot in the door with the Helena School District, Flemming took a job this summer as an academic coach with the district’s Promoting Enriching Activities for Kids program, commonly called PEAK.
She filled out the district’s electronic application, which asks for standard information like experience and references. Then came TeacherInsight, a two-part, timed test that the district considers an initial interview.
The second portion of the test offers statements for applicants to rate according a scale of one to five, from strongly agreeing to strongly disagreeing.
But it’s the initial multiple-choice section that perplexes applicants who don’t make the first cut.
For example, one question asks applicants what they think the teacher’s responsibility is. The choices are: A) to set and maintain high standards for student work; B) to provide a variety of rich opportunities for each student; C) to hold each student accountable for her work; or D) to help each student find a way to succeed.
Another question asks how an applicant would feel if a student failed: A) I am disappointed; B) I am disappointed, but question how much effort the student invested in the class; C) I take it personally; or D) I feel badly, but I encourage the student to keep trying.
Flemming and Williams note that just about all of the answers are correct, which his why the test is frustrating.
Furthermore, applicants don’t receive the test results back.
Flemming assumed she didn’t score well, although she was never informed one way or the other by the district or Gallup Consulting.
Discouraged, she sent a letter to the board of trustees last month notifying them of her “unreserved faith in the effectiveness of the TeacherInsight Interview for screening candidates.”
“Perhaps it would be a good idea to test current faculty to get a baseline to help demonstrate whether or not this test is as valid as the district seems to believe it is,” she wrote.
Gordon said that’s how the test was developed after 40 years of research.
The philosophy behind the research was to find “outstanding” teachers. Studies were conducted on teachers identified as “outstanding,” measured by the effectiveness they have on their students.
The consulting firm went to work facilitating focus groups involving thousands of teachers from districts considered to be top in the country and ultimately developed a hypothesis, Gordon said. The agency also took a random sampling from a larger group and created a pilot interview it gave to both groups.
“We looked to see how the best teachers responded and how they responded differently than the other,” Gordon said.
The test is an instrument that measures the likelihood of the test-taker’s ability to be an effective teacher.
“It’s a predictor — not a guarantee — they’ll be an effective teacher,” Helena School District Superintendent Bruce Messinger said. “We’ll get content out of other things. It’s more about characteristics that predict highly effective teachers.”
Impartial interviewing
Clint Carlos, associate partner with Gallup, said not using tools like TeacherInsight can create flaws in the hiring process, such as knowing the person or how they look on paper.
“It opens the door for human bias to enter into the equation,” he said.
The most important message, Carlos added, is caring for kids.
“Kids come first,” he said. “I have to look out for the student ahead of the applicant.”
Carlos defined talent as naturally recurring pattern of thought, feeling or behavior that can be productively applied, and used professional athletes as an example.
“We accept the fact that Tiger Woods can gain new skills and knowledge to help him improve as a golfer … but his innate talent didn’t just show up one year,” Carlos wrote in an e-mail. “His talent is rooted in his competitive edge, his drive to succeed and his unmatched focus, which he has depended on throughout his life to get where he is.”
According to Gallup, teacher effectiveness is based upon the percent of students who demonstrated growth. That growth is based upon the student’s scores increasing in relationship to their assessments from year one to year two.
Gallup provides the district with the names of the teachers who, according to their answers, are most likely to be effective teachers — ultimately, who scored the best.
“It’s not perfect, but a good predictor,” Gordon said.
In a perfect world, Messinger says, the administration would interview all applicants, but the sheer volume makes that inefficient.
This is the second hiring season — which runs from February to June — that the district has used TeacherInsight. The two-year contract, with its price tag of $12,000, expires in December. The administration will evaluate the process to see if it’s getting the quality of teachers it expects.
“We’ll decide in the fall if the instrument is working for us,” Messinger said.
Applicants who score in the range determined by Gallup to likely be the most effective teachers are invited to participate in in-person interviews with administrators. Prospective teacher and Helena native Becky Krantz was one of those teachers.
Krantz, 24, took a long-term substitute position teaching English at Helena High School in February. She’d hoped her subbing gig would help ensure her a full-time position, but she still had to take the TeacherInsight test.
Many who have already put in time in with the district, like substitute teachers, are getting jobs in Helena schools. This year, 50 percent of new hires had some previous experience with the district, Messinger said. Last year, 31 of the 67 new employees had previous experience.
Krantz scored high enough to receive an interview, but hasn’t heard yet whether she has a position this fall.
Krantz said she doesn’t have a strong feeling about the test either way, although she said multiple-choice questions like those asked by TeacherInsight are hard to answer.
“You have your own qualifiers in your head,” she said. “It took me at least 35 minutes. It was somewhat lengthy, but I don’t remember feeling horrified after. But they never talked to me about it, so I don’t know how I did.”
In Helena, not all who work in the schools take the online interview. Substitute teachers are not required to take TeacherInsight. Messinger said they would be in an ideal world, but since substitutes are only in a classroom for a few days at a time they have less overall effect on the students.
Gordon said the standard at virtually any school district is different for a substitute than a full-time teacher. Substitutes are asked to follow lessons plans and keep order, he said, while the expectations are higher for full-time teachers.
In the dark
Gallup provides the scores to the district, which does not release results to candidates. While the process is frustrating to some applicants, Gallup said different people could be hired with different scores, depending upon the applicant pool.
“It’s meaningless without knowing the process,” Gordon said.
Flemming said she still wants to know how she scored.
“I asked repeatedly for my score, but they told me I couldn’t know,” Flemming said. “Dr. Messinger said he didn’t feel it would be beneficial.”
Carlos said teachers are allowed to retake the test once a year, but those who do typically don’t improve their scores, nor does amount of experience seem to be an overriding factor in how they score.
Flemming also is discouraged by the lack of communication between applicants and the district.
“They never tell you. There’s nothing to let you know your score isn’t high enough,” she said. “Helena is pretty notorious for not getting back to you at all.”
Bill Rasor, personal services administrator for the Helena schools, said the process just takes time and the district does send out notification letters.
“We usually don’t send them until we are pretty close to completing all our hiring,” he said. “Those letters should be coming out shortly because we are pretty close.”
Another experience
This is the first year Missoula is using TeacherInsight. Larry Johnson, human resources director for the district, describes it as “one piece of information we use to screen applicants.”
But managing the volume of applications isn’t the primary reason the Missoula School District uses the process; Johnson said it helps identify people who have a greater chance of being successful teachers. Missoula’s district had about 30 openings and a pool of 382 applicants.
Missoula has a one-year contract with Gallup, but Johnson said the plan is to use it for a couple years and revise if need be.
Administrative view
Ebbie Williams, 43 (no relation to retired teacher Rita Williams) has been teaching on and off for the past 15 years in various school districts, with much of that time spent as a substitute.
She recently accepted a position teaching life science and art at C.R. Anderson beginning this fall and said TeacherInsight was a good tool as part of the process.
“But it shouldn’t be the gateway to get into the district,” she said. “The questions they asked were insightful and made you think about where you are on issues.”
Messinger said he realizes the test isn’t the end-all, noting that principals can advocate, petition or lobby for a teacher they are familiar with who may have not made it into the TeacherInsight top tier.
“Academic preparation is important. But if they wouldn’t initially be included, we’ve told principals to tell us if we should consider other information,” he said.
He added that they’ll take “a double look” at candidates who are familiar to the school district.
Hawthorne Elementary Principal Deb Jacobsen started interviewing for administrative positions during a time when people hired were in the “good ol’ boys club.” She now facilitates all the elementary interviews district-wide and said TeacherInsight has helped bring in some great teachers.
“What we are trying to say (is) it isn’t who you know, it’s what you know,” Jacobsen said. “The ‘who you know’ cannot open the door — it’s who you are.”
How the district hires staff and uses TeacherInsight is a work in progress, she said, adding that administrators will refine the process so nobody is missed that would be wonderful in classrooms.
However, Jacobsen said the initial online test isn’t without frustrations, because she’s known some applicants she felt would have made great teachers but didn’t score high enough to be in the interview pool. She’s advocated for those teachers to be considered for face-to-face interviews, and sometimes — not every time — that has happened.
Helena High School Principal Greg Upham also said the online interview is proving to be a useful tool, but he’s reserving judgment on its effectiveness until it’s been in place for a few more years.
“I’ll always have the opportunity to hire who I want if they fill the need we have,” he said.
Upham added that it will take time to figure out the effectiveness of TeacherInsight by teachers’ performances in classrooms, measured by students’ growth.
“That happens through an evaluation process we do annually on each teacher,” he said.
Reporter Alana Listoe: 447-4081 or alanalistoe@helenair.com
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Reader Comments:
helenairreader wrote on Jul 11, 2008 10:52 AM:
" purple: according to you educators are not doing the job they are paid to do right? Does this mean that Bush's great "No Child Left Behind Act" is a failure? Isnt this suppose to hold schools, administrators, and ulitmately teachers accountable and if they are failing arent there punishments for that? Also, perhaps parents should take some responsiblity for what you say is a failure in our education system. Attendance is way down. It seems like today if a child gets a runny nose they have to stay home. And perhaps instead of letting children play video games all night, some homework and or teaching by parents would be benneficial? "
helena_man wrote on Jul 11, 2008 10:26 AM:
" Purple - can you please cite your sources for your statement that American children are behind third world nations in "MATH and SCIENCE"? "
purple wrote on Jul 11, 2008 12:46 AM:
" If our education system and our educators are so great WHY does the quality of education keep declining.
For several decades now, children from third world nations keep beating American children in two critical areas - MATH and SCIENCE. Not only that but the gap between the two groups keeps widening.
Why won't educators fess up and admit they aren't doing the job they're being paid to do? "
For several decades now, children from third world nations keep beating American children in two critical areas - MATH and SCIENCE. Not only that but the gap between the two groups keeps widening.
Why won't educators fess up and admit they aren't doing the job they're being paid to do? "
ClancyGirl wrote on Jul 10, 2008 11:32 AM:
" I have to agree with Mt Helena girl. Purple- you need a clue, get off your soap box and get a life. The teachers of our town and state work their tails off in our public schools. I still keep in contact with my high school teachers, and middle school teachers for that matter. They put in so much extra effort, money and work into each student that they can. It is people like you Purple that need to stop being so negative and stop pointing fingers to find someone to blame for failures; next time re-read an article before you put in your two-cents. "
purple wrote on Jul 10, 2008 9:51 AM:
" "mthelenagir"
Lets see, teachers work "9 months" out of the year and make more than most folks make in 12 months.
Why shouldn't teachers be expected to prove they are qualified to teach? Are teachers scared they will be found out to be "unqualified" to teach?
Every year educators demand more and more money from taxpayers, yet we only see an ever increasing number of our youth who are unable to even read at the 8 grade level and who cannot even perform a simple math problem.
I've written numerous times that even if educators were given a blank check it would still not be enough for them.
Educators across this country have told taxpayers for the past 30 years -- give us more money and we will solve the problem. The only result we continue to see is American students keep falling farther and farther behind students of third world countries and they don't receive anything near what educators in this country receive.
Instead of hiring more and better qualified teachers, school administrators received a payraise. What exactly did they do to receive that payraise?
I dare say, American taxpayers get a bigger bang for their bucks where pay for military personnel is involved.
They work longer hours than teachers do, they only get 30 days of leave a year, and they provide a far greater service than teachers do and they get far less respect than teachers.
The HHS counselor my 2nd son had was actually hostile towards him when my son informed him he was joining the military.
Yeah life is expensive. Get a summer job, if you don't already have one instead of being a couch potato for three months out of the year. "
Lets see, teachers work "9 months" out of the year and make more than most folks make in 12 months.
Why shouldn't teachers be expected to prove they are qualified to teach? Are teachers scared they will be found out to be "unqualified" to teach?
Every year educators demand more and more money from taxpayers, yet we only see an ever increasing number of our youth who are unable to even read at the 8 grade level and who cannot even perform a simple math problem.
I've written numerous times that even if educators were given a blank check it would still not be enough for them.
Educators across this country have told taxpayers for the past 30 years -- give us more money and we will solve the problem. The only result we continue to see is American students keep falling farther and farther behind students of third world countries and they don't receive anything near what educators in this country receive.
Instead of hiring more and better qualified teachers, school administrators received a payraise. What exactly did they do to receive that payraise?
I dare say, American taxpayers get a bigger bang for their bucks where pay for military personnel is involved.
They work longer hours than teachers do, they only get 30 days of leave a year, and they provide a far greater service than teachers do and they get far less respect than teachers.
The HHS counselor my 2nd son had was actually hostile towards him when my son informed him he was joining the military.
Yeah life is expensive. Get a summer job, if you don't already have one instead of being a couch potato for three months out of the year. "
Mt Helena girl wrote on Jul 9, 2008 5:54 PM:
" purple - I challenge you to find a teacher's classroom to step into before you cast anymore stones! As a teacher I work unbelievably long, hard hours to help my student achieve - and I'm not the only one! How sad that our students and thus, us, as teachers are "graded" based on a standardized test. Maybe we should consider other elements, not just school, in a child's life as to why we lag behind other countries - we could start with basic expectations and responsibilities of a child and parent.
Life is more expensive these days - just look at the price of gas. It's the same in the education world - to get children's attention, we have to try to compete with the technology and video games they have at home. It's not cheap and we're definately not at the technological place we should be as a district. It's embarrasing. But, we have people like you who think we're wasting money. Life is expensive, it's just a fact we're going to have to accept. There will never be enough money because we can always do more for our students!
I find it amazing how far off task these side bars got from the initial article. How can you cast stones at someone who owns a business? Give me a break . . . that has nothing to do with failing students (who are not failed by the teacher - the student choses not to do the work, failing themself) or the initial test that was being discussed. Stop trying to put your own twist on this and stay on topic. "
Life is more expensive these days - just look at the price of gas. It's the same in the education world - to get children's attention, we have to try to compete with the technology and video games they have at home. It's not cheap and we're definately not at the technological place we should be as a district. It's embarrasing. But, we have people like you who think we're wasting money. Life is expensive, it's just a fact we're going to have to accept. There will never be enough money because we can always do more for our students!
I find it amazing how far off task these side bars got from the initial article. How can you cast stones at someone who owns a business? Give me a break . . . that has nothing to do with failing students (who are not failed by the teacher - the student choses not to do the work, failing themself) or the initial test that was being discussed. Stop trying to put your own twist on this and stay on topic. "
purple wrote on Jul 4, 2008 1:29 AM:
" "helena man" - conspiracy theory?
I asked a simple question if the teacher/administrator who owns the McDonald's franchise might have an alterior motive for failing some kids.
If the education system in this country is so grand, how is it that our children continue to lag far behind third world countries in the areas of "math" and "science". The gap between the U.S. and those countries continues to grow wider every year.
Educators keep telling us to give them more money and they will fix it. The problem is, they've been telling us that for over 30 years and the problem never gets fixed, yet somehow those in charge of the education system seem to get bigger and bigger paychecks.
Whom is really getting all of that money?
It sure hasn't done anything to resolve the continuing decline in the quality of education provided, so that money is either being wasted or someone somewhere is lining their overseas bank account with a lot of other peoples money. "
I asked a simple question if the teacher/administrator who owns the McDonald's franchise might have an alterior motive for failing some kids.
If the education system in this country is so grand, how is it that our children continue to lag far behind third world countries in the areas of "math" and "science". The gap between the U.S. and those countries continues to grow wider every year.
Educators keep telling us to give them more money and they will fix it. The problem is, they've been telling us that for over 30 years and the problem never gets fixed, yet somehow those in charge of the education system seem to get bigger and bigger paychecks.
Whom is really getting all of that money?
It sure hasn't done anything to resolve the continuing decline in the quality of education provided, so that money is either being wasted or someone somewhere is lining their overseas bank account with a lot of other peoples money. "
helena_man wrote on Jul 3, 2008 1:12 PM:
" purple - everything to you is a conspiracy. You have way too much time on your hands to come up with some of these, my friend. "
purple wrote on Jul 3, 2008 9:57 AM:
" Remember NO STUDENT LEFT BEHIND?
The primary purpose is that our children receive the "best" education for the tax dollars spent.
The teachers unions and teachers object to the program because it puts teachers on the hot seat to provide the "best" education for the tax dollars spent.
How many mediocre teachers are there out there who cannot be fired because the unions protect them? Should not mediocre teachers be shown the front door of the school instead of being retained?
Teachers whine and shivel about making less than $ 25,000 per year starting out. Do they even consider [or even care for that matter] that many of the students they FAIL are making far less?
There is one teacher/administrator in Helena who owns the McDonalds franchise on Prospect Ave. How many of her failures does she employ? Does she have a vested FINANCIAL interest in ensuring a number of her students fail so she has a revolving manpower resource for her franchise to employ?
What are needed are far stronger and stringent requirements for teachers to ensure only the "best" are teaching our children. Unions should be prohibited from interfering in the termination of mediocre teachers. "
The primary purpose is that our children receive the "best" education for the tax dollars spent.
The teachers unions and teachers object to the program because it puts teachers on the hot seat to provide the "best" education for the tax dollars spent.
How many mediocre teachers are there out there who cannot be fired because the unions protect them? Should not mediocre teachers be shown the front door of the school instead of being retained?
Teachers whine and shivel about making less than $ 25,000 per year starting out. Do they even consider [or even care for that matter] that many of the students they FAIL are making far less?
There is one teacher/administrator in Helena who owns the McDonalds franchise on Prospect Ave. How many of her failures does she employ? Does she have a vested FINANCIAL interest in ensuring a number of her students fail so she has a revolving manpower resource for her franchise to employ?
What are needed are far stronger and stringent requirements for teachers to ensure only the "best" are teaching our children. Unions should be prohibited from interfering in the termination of mediocre teachers. "
ascaris wrote on Jul 2, 2008 4:11 PM:
" I too have had almost no success with the Helena School District. I graduated from Carroll College, student taught in the district, and was certified in three different subjects.
Since graduating college in 2004, I have applied for 15-20 teaching jobs in the district. I have received 2 interviews--both before this test was implemented and both in an area somewhat outside of my license.
I think Helena is missing out on a number of great, highly qualified teachers who are 'weeded' out by this ridiculous test and the 'good ol' boy' system. They deny it, but I feel as though getting on in the district is an 'it's not what you know, but who you know' proposition.
Sadly, it doesn't seem like the district will change anytime soon, so Helena will continue to miss out on teachers who are independent thinkers, who love kids, and who love to teach. "
Since graduating college in 2004, I have applied for 15-20 teaching jobs in the district. I have received 2 interviews--both before this test was implemented and both in an area somewhat outside of my license.
I think Helena is missing out on a number of great, highly qualified teachers who are 'weeded' out by this ridiculous test and the 'good ol' boy' system. They deny it, but I feel as though getting on in the district is an 'it's not what you know, but who you know' proposition.
Sadly, it doesn't seem like the district will change anytime soon, so Helena will continue to miss out on teachers who are independent thinkers, who love kids, and who love to teach. "
kitkatbe wrote on Jul 2, 2008 12:29 PM:
" I question Bruce Messinger's comment that "We'll get content out of other things." This statement seems to contradict the idea that they can't interview all applicants and also questions the validity of this test. Despite the fact that Sarah didn't get an interview, Helena's parents, kids and schools should feel immensely blessed to have Sarah raise such an important question about the teacher's hiring process. Lastly, when we look at this situation from a more macro level, how can we be such poor role models? Our students need to grow in a school system that encourages and praises a person's individuality, experience, education and passion. Sarah Flemming wins my praise. I hope that my children get the opportunity to be taught by such a role model. "
blueeyes wrote on Jul 1, 2008 11:04 PM:
" This test makes no sence whatsoever. How could a group of questions that do not have a wrong answer be used to determine a person's qualifications for such an important job as teaching our children. It seems to me the school district is looking for cookie cutter teachers so that everyone is the same, and heaven forbid would ever think of bucking the system or challenging the administration if they disagree with the dictates of those in charge. What you seem to be forgetting here is there are a very diverse group of children in the system that need a variety of teacher not just a group of idealistic stepford robots. I'd like to know what is going to happen to the children who have special needs and there are no teachers left that have the ability to reach them.
I have a couple of family members who are young teachers. Neither one of them, by the way has been able to get jobs in the Helena School District in spite of the fact that they are wonderful teachers who were given incredible offers to stay teaching in the rural schools they left so they could come to Helena. In fact, last year one of them didn't get an interview because he did not pass this great test. He learned that the key to answering the test is to answer what he thought the district wanted to hear and low and behold he got an interview. He did not happen to get the job which is okay because he has a good job in an educational capacity that has a future for him and his family. The other teacher is working in a special situation that required administrative intervention to get her an interview because she did not pass the test. Both of these individuals have been successfully teaching for nearly ten years in small Montana communities. They are both Montana natives, and did not want to leave the state to get a job. In spite of their qualifications the Helena school district didn't want either of these talented young people to teach the community's most precious resources our children.
Oh yes, to the person claiming these teaches are just whiners who are not qualified - have you taken this ridiculous, misleading and very subjective test? Do you even know what they are asking and could you pass it? By the way, how fair do you think it is that a local higher educational facility teaches its teaching students the way to answer the questions so they pass, now just how fair is that?
As a tax payer and a voter I have always been very supportive of school funding. I deeply resent the school district using my tax dollars to screen out well qualified Montanans, and even more outrageous, long time Helena residents as teachers. There are a multitude of screening tools that could be used to weed out applicants without using unfair, subjective and misleading questions to make sure you don't get well qualified applicants who can think for themselves.
To WYMoon, I'm sorry we missed the opportunity to have a teacher of your calibur teaching in Helena. "
I have a couple of family members who are young teachers. Neither one of them, by the way has been able to get jobs in the Helena School District in spite of the fact that they are wonderful teachers who were given incredible offers to stay teaching in the rural schools they left so they could come to Helena. In fact, last year one of them didn't get an interview because he did not pass this great test. He learned that the key to answering the test is to answer what he thought the district wanted to hear and low and behold he got an interview. He did not happen to get the job which is okay because he has a good job in an educational capacity that has a future for him and his family. The other teacher is working in a special situation that required administrative intervention to get her an interview because she did not pass the test. Both of these individuals have been successfully teaching for nearly ten years in small Montana communities. They are both Montana natives, and did not want to leave the state to get a job. In spite of their qualifications the Helena school district didn't want either of these talented young people to teach the community's most precious resources our children.
Oh yes, to the person claiming these teaches are just whiners who are not qualified - have you taken this ridiculous, misleading and very subjective test? Do you even know what they are asking and could you pass it? By the way, how fair do you think it is that a local higher educational facility teaches its teaching students the way to answer the questions so they pass, now just how fair is that?
As a tax payer and a voter I have always been very supportive of school funding. I deeply resent the school district using my tax dollars to screen out well qualified Montanans, and even more outrageous, long time Helena residents as teachers. There are a multitude of screening tools that could be used to weed out applicants without using unfair, subjective and misleading questions to make sure you don't get well qualified applicants who can think for themselves.
To WYMoon, I'm sorry we missed the opportunity to have a teacher of your calibur teaching in Helena. "
WYMoon wrote on Jun 30, 2008 10:40 PM:
" Last May I completed my student teaching within the Helena School District. While I was very excited about some aspects of the district, I too, was disturbed by "the test". Upon completing the test I was baffled by how they were going to use the results to "weed out" unqualified people. The questions were not only vague, but very misleading. For anyone that wants to experience it, I challenge you to log on and take the test. Not only is it lacking validity, but merit. Much like many reading and writing programs somewhere within the district, someone heard of the test, probably at a conference, and jumped on it. With any luck it will go away just like countless reading, writing, and math programs; only then will Helena stop weeding out candidates based on an erroneous test.
I recently moved to WY to pursue my career as an elementary teacher (after trying to stay in Helena). In this highly competitive district (200 applicants for each position) I received numerous interviews and a job based solely on my credentials and not my name (I just moved here). It takes diligence on the part of the principals who spend hours pouring over resumes, cover letters, and letters of recommendation. As one administrator told me this is the most important part, she gets a feel for the candidates and can fill the needs at her school. This element is lacking in Helena. When I called to see if I would get an interview I was told that they would be calling the next round (2nd or 3rd) of "probably 50" applicants. It made me wonder why did they need to go through so many people if the Insight Poll was so reliable?? I still wonder how many people would have had to bomb their interview for me to be on the list.
The larger issue that the state and in particular the legislature has to look at is the low paying schools within MT that make Helena look like an educators dream. With the low pay thorough out Montana, Helena is not getting more quality applicants, but rather just clouding the applicant pool with others looking to make it financially. The bottom line is Montana and Helena in particular needs to find a way to keep young people in the state and quit allowing our youth to leave.
As for the people like purple who suggest that some of us are not as "qualified as you think"; well tell me then how people with experience, the education, drive-passion, and recommendations can be under qualified for said positions. Many states have a standardized test (PRAXIS) in each discipline to make teachers highly qualified. At the time of my application MT was not using any test, which has results published and sent to the school, district, and applicant! It is time you support your teachers as they are the life line to your youth and care a great deal about YOUR children.
Montana is a great place to live, but the mountains, rivers, and lakes can only keep our youth occupied until the burdens of life and students loan come crashing down. Name one other profession that offers you the chance to continue your education at your expense, on your time, and requires you to put in an untold number of hours outside of your normal work week. They also offer you the chance to use a portion of your meager salary to equip and run your classroom. Good luck to all new applicants! "
I recently moved to WY to pursue my career as an elementary teacher (after trying to stay in Helena). In this highly competitive district (200 applicants for each position) I received numerous interviews and a job based solely on my credentials and not my name (I just moved here). It takes diligence on the part of the principals who spend hours pouring over resumes, cover letters, and letters of recommendation. As one administrator told me this is the most important part, she gets a feel for the candidates and can fill the needs at her school. This element is lacking in Helena. When I called to see if I would get an interview I was told that they would be calling the next round (2nd or 3rd) of "probably 50" applicants. It made me wonder why did they need to go through so many people if the Insight Poll was so reliable?? I still wonder how many people would have had to bomb their interview for me to be on the list.
The larger issue that the state and in particular the legislature has to look at is the low paying schools within MT that make Helena look like an educators dream. With the low pay thorough out Montana, Helena is not getting more quality applicants, but rather just clouding the applicant pool with others looking to make it financially. The bottom line is Montana and Helena in particular needs to find a way to keep young people in the state and quit allowing our youth to leave.
As for the people like purple who suggest that some of us are not as "qualified as you think"; well tell me then how people with experience, the education, drive-passion, and recommendations can be under qualified for said positions. Many states have a standardized test (PRAXIS) in each discipline to make teachers highly qualified. At the time of my application MT was not using any test, which has results published and sent to the school, district, and applicant! It is time you support your teachers as they are the life line to your youth and care a great deal about YOUR children.
Montana is a great place to live, but the mountains, rivers, and lakes can only keep our youth occupied until the burdens of life and students loan come crashing down. Name one other profession that offers you the chance to continue your education at your expense, on your time, and requires you to put in an untold number of hours outside of your normal work week. They also offer you the chance to use a portion of your meager salary to equip and run your classroom. Good luck to all new applicants! "
nativemtsince83 wrote on Jun 30, 2008 12:58 PM:
" Having known Sarah Fleming for a few years, Im extremely proud of her for stepping forward in an attempt to right what is most definitely an injustice. Sarah will probably never benefit from taking a stand about this issue. If the district can blackball her with a test score that only 3 people know, then Im sure they can find ways to keep her out indefinitely. She will probably never be allowed to teach in the Helena School District, despite her 3 years of experience within the district, all with rave reviews. That is the districts loss. Worse, it is the students loss.
Sarah is not the only fantastic teacher that TeacherInsight missed. She is just the first one to come forward and challenge the Superintendent and the School Board. If more of these teachers were to come forward, perhaps the sanctity of this test could also be challenged (School Board, its in your hands), or at the very least the district could be asked to use the information in a more appropriate way.
Way to go, Sarah! If more young teachers like you stood up and spoke out, perhaps Montana wouldnt treat its teachers so terribly. I only hope that you will inspire more teachers to voice their opinions and ask the School Board to reconsider Dr. Messengers use of this test. "
Sarah is not the only fantastic teacher that TeacherInsight missed. She is just the first one to come forward and challenge the Superintendent and the School Board. If more of these teachers were to come forward, perhaps the sanctity of this test could also be challenged (School Board, its in your hands), or at the very least the district could be asked to use the information in a more appropriate way.
Way to go, Sarah! If more young teachers like you stood up and spoke out, perhaps Montana wouldnt treat its teachers so terribly. I only hope that you will inspire more teachers to voice their opinions and ask the School Board to reconsider Dr. Messengers use of this test. "
kevinken wrote on Jun 29, 2008 7:43 AM:
" This spring I applied for teaching jobs in the Helena District (I am a product of the Helena Schools and wanted to come back home). I have taught for 10 years, have a Master's degree, and have great recommendations. I went through the process of doing the online application and taking the Teacher Insight Test. Of course, I didn't get any results or information about my performance. I must not have done very well because I wasn't even granted an interview. It seems like the district could have saved me a lot of time by having me do the Test first before I spent several hours filling out the online application. Recently I did receive an email from the HSD Personnel Department telling me that I was rejected and the positions have been filled by other people who met the needs of the district. Good thing I still have my current job. Apparently I meet the needs of my current school district! "
MTRICH wrote on Jun 29, 2008 7:07 AM:
" I do not know if the test is a good or bad hiring tool. What I do know is a government institution with a secret test with secret results is ripe for abuse. How convienent. The school can discriminate at will for any reason they please and since it is all "SECRET", who will ever know. I do not beleive it will not survive judicial review for this reason. "
purple wrote on Jun 29, 2008 5:17 AM:
" Why should those, wanting to be teachers, be treated any differently than others?
Several local businesses which I have applied for jobs with have used "similar" tests. I wasn't hired and I didn't whine and snivel that the "personality" test wasn't "fair".
How about getting a life and realize that more and more employers are looking for "level headed" employees who can think on their feet and whom will fit in with how the particular business operates.
Did you ever stop to think you "are not" qualified for the job you are applying for despite your own opinion otherwise? I have/did, but I moved on and sought other employment. "
Several local businesses which I have applied for jobs with have used "similar" tests. I wasn't hired and I didn't whine and snivel that the "personality" test wasn't "fair".
How about getting a life and realize that more and more employers are looking for "level headed" employees who can think on their feet and whom will fit in with how the particular business operates.
Did you ever stop to think you "are not" qualified for the job you are applying for despite your own opinion otherwise? I have/did, but I moved on and sought other employment. "
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purple wrote on Jul 11, 2008 7:35 PM:
"helenairreader" - sure the No Child Left Behind isn't working. Educators have been fighting this program tooth and nail and have been dragging their feet hoping someone would come along and put an end to it. They were doing that for a very simple reason - possible termination of their job when it is found they are INCOMPETENT!
Oh, and by the way, it wasn't Pres Bush's program. The [dis]honorable Sen Ted Kennedy was the one who authored it. Think back to when President Bush appointed Kennedy to come up with an education program.
Sure school attendance is down. Thats because more and more parents are finding that homeschooling their kids works better than sending them to a failed public education system. Homeschooling is the way to go anymore. Then there is the matter of educators attempting to brainwash them with their pro-democrat and anti-America agenda.
A year or so back a child who was homeschooled won the national spelling bee. "