Nitrate study numbers inaccurate
By LARRY KLINE - Independent Record - 10/21/08
One of the justifications used to define a purported water-quality emergency in the Helena Valley — and to back up the Lewis and Clark County Commission’s interim zoning regulations — has been proven false, but county officials continue to contend the error doesn’t detract from evidence supporting a water-quality crisis.
Nearly two years ago, the county’s environmental health chief, Kathy Moore, put together a brief summary of groundwater-quality data gathered over three decades in the valley. One of the report’s oft-cited conclusions was that nitrate levels in valley wells had seen an eightfold increase from 1973 to 2000, from 0.5 parts per million to more than 4 ppm.
The claim, Moore and other officials now admit, wasn’t accurate — but they continue to assert a water-quality emergency exists. County commissioners, Moore and County Administrator Ron Alles noted nitrate levels did increase over time, and said other evidence proves the problem exists and must be addressed.
The quality of the valley’s groundwater was already a central issue in the county commission race between Democratic incumbent Ed Tinsley and Republican challenger Derek Brown. The discovery of Moore’s error late last week has sharpened the two candidates’ disagreements on the issue.
In an editorial board meeting attended Monday by both candidates, Brown said county officials had deliberately misled the public to justify their controversial interim zoning rules.
“I think it’s a travesty to lie to the public that way,” he said. Tinsley said he was taken aback by the accusation and strongly denied it.
“Where I come from, that’s not a lie — that’s owning up to a mistake you’ve made,” he said.
Brown said Moore had cherry-picked data to support the purported emergency and said the error made him question her credibility.
“In that instance of that report, I made an error,” Moore said later in an interview. “It was poor judgment.”
Moore holds undergraduate degrees in chemistry and environmental health and a master’s degree in public administration. She also holds an associate’s degree in water and wastewater plant operation.
Two errors
During interviews Thursday and Friday, Moore realized she had made two errors when calculating the rise of the median level of nitrates in valley wells over the past three decades. Distinct from the mean or the average, a median value is the midpoint in a series of statistics. For example, five is the median of a series of numbers from one through nine.
First, she had used a value of 0.5 ppm as the median level of nitrates found in the valley in a 1973 U.S. Geological Survey study. That report states the median level is 0.9 ppm. Moore said the mistake was a simple oversight.
Moore was then questioned about the median value of 4.15 ppm in a 2000 USGS study of wells drilled into bedrock in the hills surrounding the Helena Valley.
In a previous interview, Moore had said she used four USGS studies to find her median nitrate levels because the authors of those studies all used samples from the same wells, providing a consistent set of data. When she was shown that the 2000 study used different wells, she recanted and said she had made an analytical error.
On Monday she presented a new set of figures to the Independent Record and said six studies — the four USGS documents and two studies put together by the Water Quality Protection District — show an increase in the median nitrate level from 0.9 ppm to 1.4 ppm, though the figure rises and falls in the various documents.
The average nitrate levels have increased from 1.25 ppm to 2.88 ppm in the same time frame, using the same studies, according to Moore. Those studies tested as few as 10 wells and as many as 200.
Another report, compiled by hydrologist Vivian Drake as part of her doctoral work, shows median nitrate levels increasing from 1.2 ppm to 1.42 ppm over the same time period.
Fabrication?
Brown alleged last week and on Monday that the county had fabricated the groundwater emergency in order to push through interim zoning regulations.
Those rules required the installation of costly, advanced septic systems in some parts of the valley. Though they initially contained a blanket requirement for Level II septic systems for all new and replacement systems in the valley, county commissioners have ratcheted back the rules twice in the past 18 months. Now, advanced treatment systems are only required for new installations in some portions of the valley.
Brown said the county had used fear tactics and officials’ actions had damaged public trust in local government.
“It’s indicative of the entire attitude — let’s create an emergency so we can get interim zoning and we’ll lie about it,” Brown said Friday. “When it finally got pushed hard into a corner after two years, they finally admitted that they lied about it.”
Moore and other county officials admit she made a mistake, but said there was no intent to mislead the public.
“I relied on our staff,” Tinsley said. “I stand by our staff.”
Brown also claimed the county considered the water-quality emergency a foregone conclusion and said Moore had too little time — officials gave her three days to draft the 2006 summary — to truly investigate the issue.
Moore said her three-day deadline was stressful because of the amount of data she had to sift through. She said she initially didn’t believe the valley’s groundwater quality represented an emergency situation, but after looking through the 13 studies she cited in her report, she was swayed by the information.
Asked how he would react to the data presented by Moore, including the reduced increase in nitrate levels, Brown said he would be concerned but not reactive.
“I’d monitor it, but I don’t think it’s an emergency,” he said.
Other factors
In interviews, Tinsley, Alles and County Commissioners Mike Murray and Andy Hunthausen maintained their assertion that a groundwater-quality emergency exists in the valley.
They point to other conclusions summarized in Moore’s report, including the discovery of trace amounts pharmaceuticals and personal-care products in more than 30 valley wells, the increasing trend of nitrate contamination, and at least four “hot spots” in the valley, neighborhoods where water samples often come back with nitrate levels far exceeding the public-drinking-water standard of 10 ppm.
Alles said Moore’s error doesn’t change his conclusions.
“It’s unfortunate that this one piece of the wealth of information out there, people are going to use that to try to mislead folks that there isn’t a problem, there never was a problem,” Alles said.
“We were talking about these issues well before Kathy’s information … all of those reports are still available, they’re still valid, they still require us to do something about the water quality in the valley,” he added.
Asked if he still believed an emergency exists, Murray said: “Absolutely. How much poop do you want in your water?
“The fact that a staff member made an error on a report doesn’t take away the fact that we have a water-quality emergency in the valley,” he added.
Reporter Larry Kline: 447-4075 or larry.kline@helenair.com
Nearly two years ago, the county’s environmental health chief, Kathy Moore, put together a brief summary of groundwater-quality data gathered over three decades in the valley. One of the report’s oft-cited conclusions was that nitrate levels in valley wells had seen an eightfold increase from 1973 to 2000, from 0.5 parts per million to more than 4 ppm.
The claim, Moore and other officials now admit, wasn’t accurate — but they continue to assert a water-quality emergency exists. County commissioners, Moore and County Administrator Ron Alles noted nitrate levels did increase over time, and said other evidence proves the problem exists and must be addressed.
The quality of the valley’s groundwater was already a central issue in the county commission race between Democratic incumbent Ed Tinsley and Republican challenger Derek Brown. The discovery of Moore’s error late last week has sharpened the two candidates’ disagreements on the issue.
In an editorial board meeting attended Monday by both candidates, Brown said county officials had deliberately misled the public to justify their controversial interim zoning rules.
“I think it’s a travesty to lie to the public that way,” he said. Tinsley said he was taken aback by the accusation and strongly denied it.
“Where I come from, that’s not a lie — that’s owning up to a mistake you’ve made,” he said.
Brown said Moore had cherry-picked data to support the purported emergency and said the error made him question her credibility.
“In that instance of that report, I made an error,” Moore said later in an interview. “It was poor judgment.”
Moore holds undergraduate degrees in chemistry and environmental health and a master’s degree in public administration. She also holds an associate’s degree in water and wastewater plant operation.
Two errors
During interviews Thursday and Friday, Moore realized she had made two errors when calculating the rise of the median level of nitrates in valley wells over the past three decades. Distinct from the mean or the average, a median value is the midpoint in a series of statistics. For example, five is the median of a series of numbers from one through nine.
First, she had used a value of 0.5 ppm as the median level of nitrates found in the valley in a 1973 U.S. Geological Survey study. That report states the median level is 0.9 ppm. Moore said the mistake was a simple oversight.
Moore was then questioned about the median value of 4.15 ppm in a 2000 USGS study of wells drilled into bedrock in the hills surrounding the Helena Valley.
In a previous interview, Moore had said she used four USGS studies to find her median nitrate levels because the authors of those studies all used samples from the same wells, providing a consistent set of data. When she was shown that the 2000 study used different wells, she recanted and said she had made an analytical error.
On Monday she presented a new set of figures to the Independent Record and said six studies — the four USGS documents and two studies put together by the Water Quality Protection District — show an increase in the median nitrate level from 0.9 ppm to 1.4 ppm, though the figure rises and falls in the various documents.
The average nitrate levels have increased from 1.25 ppm to 2.88 ppm in the same time frame, using the same studies, according to Moore. Those studies tested as few as 10 wells and as many as 200.
Another report, compiled by hydrologist Vivian Drake as part of her doctoral work, shows median nitrate levels increasing from 1.2 ppm to 1.42 ppm over the same time period.
Fabrication?
Brown alleged last week and on Monday that the county had fabricated the groundwater emergency in order to push through interim zoning regulations.
Those rules required the installation of costly, advanced septic systems in some parts of the valley. Though they initially contained a blanket requirement for Level II septic systems for all new and replacement systems in the valley, county commissioners have ratcheted back the rules twice in the past 18 months. Now, advanced treatment systems are only required for new installations in some portions of the valley.
Brown said the county had used fear tactics and officials’ actions had damaged public trust in local government.
“It’s indicative of the entire attitude — let’s create an emergency so we can get interim zoning and we’ll lie about it,” Brown said Friday. “When it finally got pushed hard into a corner after two years, they finally admitted that they lied about it.”
Moore and other county officials admit she made a mistake, but said there was no intent to mislead the public.
“I relied on our staff,” Tinsley said. “I stand by our staff.”
Brown also claimed the county considered the water-quality emergency a foregone conclusion and said Moore had too little time — officials gave her three days to draft the 2006 summary — to truly investigate the issue.
Moore said her three-day deadline was stressful because of the amount of data she had to sift through. She said she initially didn’t believe the valley’s groundwater quality represented an emergency situation, but after looking through the 13 studies she cited in her report, she was swayed by the information.
Asked how he would react to the data presented by Moore, including the reduced increase in nitrate levels, Brown said he would be concerned but not reactive.
“I’d monitor it, but I don’t think it’s an emergency,” he said.
Other factors
In interviews, Tinsley, Alles and County Commissioners Mike Murray and Andy Hunthausen maintained their assertion that a groundwater-quality emergency exists in the valley.
They point to other conclusions summarized in Moore’s report, including the discovery of trace amounts pharmaceuticals and personal-care products in more than 30 valley wells, the increasing trend of nitrate contamination, and at least four “hot spots” in the valley, neighborhoods where water samples often come back with nitrate levels far exceeding the public-drinking-water standard of 10 ppm.
Alles said Moore’s error doesn’t change his conclusions.
“It’s unfortunate that this one piece of the wealth of information out there, people are going to use that to try to mislead folks that there isn’t a problem, there never was a problem,” Alles said.
“We were talking about these issues well before Kathy’s information … all of those reports are still available, they’re still valid, they still require us to do something about the water quality in the valley,” he added.
Asked if he still believed an emergency exists, Murray said: “Absolutely. How much poop do you want in your water?
“The fact that a staff member made an error on a report doesn’t take away the fact that we have a water-quality emergency in the valley,” he added.
Reporter Larry Kline: 447-4075 or larry.kline@helenair.com
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Reader Comments:
mike fasbender wrote on Oct 24, 2008 9:49 PM:
" If you check my earlier posts, you will see I referred to experts who had submitted evidence. Well I have researched and found the letter that I had mentioned concerning the "ambulance chaser" sampling techniques. At the end of this post is an excerpt taken from that letter written by a local hydrogeologist, Patrick Faber, which was submitted to the Kommissioners in May of 2007 (the entire letter is public record). Mr. Faber clearly and succinctly explains that Ms. Moore's nitrate numbers are fabricated and artificially elevated due to poor sampling techniques used in her statistical analysis. All three sitting Kommissioners were sent this letter, and all three have ignored it and instead have continued to use, for the last year and a half, the numbers fabricated by Ms. Moore to support their water quality emergency and interim zoning. Below is clear and overwhelming evidence that kommissioners Tinsley, Murray, and Hunthausen have been knowingly lying to us for a year and a half. Here is the excerpt:
I greatly dispute the claim that there is a state of emergency with respect to nitrate levels in the Helena Valley. The 4 ppm average being tossed about by the Lewis & Clark Water Quality Protection District is ridiculously high. In 1972, the USGS did a study and found the average nitrate value in the Helena Valley to be 1.1 ppm. In 2002 I did a study which was summarized in an affidavit submitted as part of an amicus brief in a court case. The study involved tallying every nitrate sample which I collected from 1995-2002. Out of 98 wells that I personally had sampled during that 7 year time-span, only one well had a value between 5-10 ppm. 97 out of 98 wells had values below 5 ppm. The average nitrate value for these 98 wells was 1.06 ppm, statistically identical to the USGS study 30 years earlier.
I do believe there is an explanation for the 4 ppm average of the L&CWQPD. When one examines the spreadsheets showing all of the samples collected over the years by the
district, one sees the same names occurring over and over again. When a high nitrate value is discovered (such as the Brelin, Woehl, or Darcy School wells) those wells are permanently sampled on a recurring basis. When a well with a boring nitrate sample is
found, it is never sampled again. This ambulance chaser mentality results in a skewed average which is completely out of proportion to the actual average found in the Helena Valley. The 1.06 ppm average that I found in my study does not make for any headlines in the IR, it does not support a state of emergency situation; it does not provide any scientific basis for bulldozing ahead with the Interim Zoning measures. "
I greatly dispute the claim that there is a state of emergency with respect to nitrate levels in the Helena Valley. The 4 ppm average being tossed about by the Lewis & Clark Water Quality Protection District is ridiculously high. In 1972, the USGS did a study and found the average nitrate value in the Helena Valley to be 1.1 ppm. In 2002 I did a study which was summarized in an affidavit submitted as part of an amicus brief in a court case. The study involved tallying every nitrate sample which I collected from 1995-2002. Out of 98 wells that I personally had sampled during that 7 year time-span, only one well had a value between 5-10 ppm. 97 out of 98 wells had values below 5 ppm. The average nitrate value for these 98 wells was 1.06 ppm, statistically identical to the USGS study 30 years earlier.
I do believe there is an explanation for the 4 ppm average of the L&CWQPD. When one examines the spreadsheets showing all of the samples collected over the years by the
district, one sees the same names occurring over and over again. When a high nitrate value is discovered (such as the Brelin, Woehl, or Darcy School wells) those wells are permanently sampled on a recurring basis. When a well with a boring nitrate sample is
found, it is never sampled again. This ambulance chaser mentality results in a skewed average which is completely out of proportion to the actual average found in the Helena Valley. The 1.06 ppm average that I found in my study does not make for any headlines in the IR, it does not support a state of emergency situation; it does not provide any scientific basis for bulldozing ahead with the Interim Zoning measures. "
mike fasbender wrote on Oct 22, 2008 7:40 AM:
" Time and time again the BOCC was told we don't have a water quality emergency. Check the public record, they were told this by a number of engineers and others with training in septic design and non degradation analysis that there wasn't an emergency. Why would they choose to ignore those with expertise in this area? Now they have gotten the taxpayers into a very big pickle, and the costs could run into the millions.
Here in Montana we've got excellent regulatory oversight by the Montana Department of Environmental. In granting septic approval, there are a number of criteria that must be met, including a very in depth non-degradation analysis based upon site specific conditions. In doing this non-deg, there is modeling that predicts how well the proposed septics will perform. Ask any engineer to look at the data that Ms. Moore has provided related to the increase in nitrate levels, and they will tell you that even using her worst case numbers the septic systems are performing better than the modeling predicted. As Wooleybugger stated, what we have here in the valley is the opposite of an emergency.
Montana Code Annotated, 76-2-206(a), states that the Board of County Commissioners may adopt interim zoning if "the purpose of the interim zoning map or regulation is to classify and regulate those uses and related matters that constitute the emergency;". From a legal standpoint the BOCC MUST immediately rescind their interim zoning.
Level II treatment systems do NOT treat for pharmaceuticals and personal care products. The BOCC can cite the PPCP study all they want, but even if that were an emergency, their level II regulation does not meet the statutory requirement that the zoning regulate those matters that constitute the emergency.
Every day that they continue to keep their heads in the sand and refuse to rescind their ill conceived interim zoning scheme is another day that creates more legal liability to the taxpaying citizens of Lewis and Clark County.
If they refuse to rescind and limit taxpayer liability, then perhaps Intelligent Reader is correct, and it is time for the citizens to take it upon ourselves to limit our liability, and recall all three commissioners. "
Here in Montana we've got excellent regulatory oversight by the Montana Department of Environmental. In granting septic approval, there are a number of criteria that must be met, including a very in depth non-degradation analysis based upon site specific conditions. In doing this non-deg, there is modeling that predicts how well the proposed septics will perform. Ask any engineer to look at the data that Ms. Moore has provided related to the increase in nitrate levels, and they will tell you that even using her worst case numbers the septic systems are performing better than the modeling predicted. As Wooleybugger stated, what we have here in the valley is the opposite of an emergency.
Montana Code Annotated, 76-2-206(a), states that the Board of County Commissioners may adopt interim zoning if "the purpose of the interim zoning map or regulation is to classify and regulate those uses and related matters that constitute the emergency;". From a legal standpoint the BOCC MUST immediately rescind their interim zoning.
Level II treatment systems do NOT treat for pharmaceuticals and personal care products. The BOCC can cite the PPCP study all they want, but even if that were an emergency, their level II regulation does not meet the statutory requirement that the zoning regulate those matters that constitute the emergency.
Every day that they continue to keep their heads in the sand and refuse to rescind their ill conceived interim zoning scheme is another day that creates more legal liability to the taxpaying citizens of Lewis and Clark County.
If they refuse to rescind and limit taxpayer liability, then perhaps Intelligent Reader is correct, and it is time for the citizens to take it upon ourselves to limit our liability, and recall all three commissioners. "
ruby wrote on Oct 21, 2008 3:12 PM:
" Unfortunately, many folks do not understand that septic systems, as they age, they fail. There's a lot of reasons why but, depending on the maintenance they received through the years, some fail earlier than others. That is one of the most significant issues this county is facing right now. Even though the County is looking at proving an emergency - their real emergency is helping people evaluate their systems. For those who find theirs is polluting the ground, the County should provide a methodology for replacement. But are they doing that? No. Too bad they have their priorities in stopping growth rather than keeping our citizens safe and healthy. "
mike fasbender wrote on Oct 21, 2008 2:58 PM:
" Approximately two years ago, Commissioner Anita Varone and I met with the editorial board of this newspaper. We provided ample evidence that there was not a water quality emergency, and that the emergency was fabricated. We were both looked at like we were crazy, and until today there was absolutely no follow up from the IR.
The Helena Association of Realtors has maintained for an even longer time that instead of placing arbitrary acreage minimums in zoning for septic placement, that septic design and placement should instead be left up to the engineers and scientists at Montana DEQ based upon site specific conditions. They finally got so fed up from being ignored that they withdrew from the Development Standards Working Group.
When the commission passed their ill fated zoning resolution, Commissioner Anita Varone admonished Tinsley and Murray for moving so quickly, and asked why not take the time to do it right, rather than fast. As you all know, she was ignored, and the other two forced zoning upon the citizens of the county, over almost unanimous public testimony in opposition.
The actions of the three sitting commissioners have greatly damaged public trust in government, and have set back the possibility of having any meaningful zoning regulations in our county by years. If anyone questions their absolute state of denial, all you have to do is look at their quotes in todays article and their steadfastness and almost frantic clinging to their assertions that there is still an emergency. Tinsley states that they are owning up to a mistake they have made. Seriously???? If they were truly going to own up to a mistake, they would rescind interim zoning immediately. That would be admitting a mistake. They arent even coming close to owning up to a mistake. The numbers dont lie. We dont have a nitrate emergency. They cite pharmaceuticals, hoping against hope that the public wont realize that the very expensive Level II treatment systems they require in their zoning regulations dont even treat for pharmaceuticals. Classic, theyve come up with a solution that doesnt even solve their made up problem. If pharmaceuticals found in our groundwater in parts per billion constitutes an emergency, then we have a national emergency, because they are being found all over the country. Im sorry, but an eyedropper full of ibuprofen or caffeine in a football stadium filled with 10 feet of water doesnt even come close to an emergency.
This is an open challenge to Ed Tinsley, Ron Alles, Mike Murray, and Andy Hunthausen, who all maintain that a groundwater quality emergency exists.
Prove it. Find one single licensed engineer who will write a white paper stating that we have a groundwater quality emergency. By this I don't mean to find a county employee and threaten her with her job if she doesn't write a white paper to support your position. I mean find one single licensed engineer who will review the data and state the nitrate levels in the valley have created a water quality emergency, and therefore level II treatments requirements are justified. Please, produce one single engineer who is willing to put his/her license on the line. Let's cut through all the rhetoric and political BS once and for all. Find someone who will agree with you that the world is flat.
I wish you luck, but dont think you will be successful. Your ship is sinking. Your lies have finally caught up to you. You are like the little boy who cried wolf, except this is much more serious. Your fabricated emergency has cost people potentially millions of dollars, their homes, their livelihoods. We as taxpayers are going to have to pay for your mistakes with the lawsuits that are almost certain to follow todays news. "
The Helena Association of Realtors has maintained for an even longer time that instead of placing arbitrary acreage minimums in zoning for septic placement, that septic design and placement should instead be left up to the engineers and scientists at Montana DEQ based upon site specific conditions. They finally got so fed up from being ignored that they withdrew from the Development Standards Working Group.
When the commission passed their ill fated zoning resolution, Commissioner Anita Varone admonished Tinsley and Murray for moving so quickly, and asked why not take the time to do it right, rather than fast. As you all know, she was ignored, and the other two forced zoning upon the citizens of the county, over almost unanimous public testimony in opposition.
The actions of the three sitting commissioners have greatly damaged public trust in government, and have set back the possibility of having any meaningful zoning regulations in our county by years. If anyone questions their absolute state of denial, all you have to do is look at their quotes in todays article and their steadfastness and almost frantic clinging to their assertions that there is still an emergency. Tinsley states that they are owning up to a mistake they have made. Seriously???? If they were truly going to own up to a mistake, they would rescind interim zoning immediately. That would be admitting a mistake. They arent even coming close to owning up to a mistake. The numbers dont lie. We dont have a nitrate emergency. They cite pharmaceuticals, hoping against hope that the public wont realize that the very expensive Level II treatment systems they require in their zoning regulations dont even treat for pharmaceuticals. Classic, theyve come up with a solution that doesnt even solve their made up problem. If pharmaceuticals found in our groundwater in parts per billion constitutes an emergency, then we have a national emergency, because they are being found all over the country. Im sorry, but an eyedropper full of ibuprofen or caffeine in a football stadium filled with 10 feet of water doesnt even come close to an emergency.
This is an open challenge to Ed Tinsley, Ron Alles, Mike Murray, and Andy Hunthausen, who all maintain that a groundwater quality emergency exists.
Prove it. Find one single licensed engineer who will write a white paper stating that we have a groundwater quality emergency. By this I don't mean to find a county employee and threaten her with her job if she doesn't write a white paper to support your position. I mean find one single licensed engineer who will review the data and state the nitrate levels in the valley have created a water quality emergency, and therefore level II treatments requirements are justified. Please, produce one single engineer who is willing to put his/her license on the line. Let's cut through all the rhetoric and political BS once and for all. Find someone who will agree with you that the world is flat.
I wish you luck, but dont think you will be successful. Your ship is sinking. Your lies have finally caught up to you. You are like the little boy who cried wolf, except this is much more serious. Your fabricated emergency has cost people potentially millions of dollars, their homes, their livelihoods. We as taxpayers are going to have to pay for your mistakes with the lawsuits that are almost certain to follow todays news. "
wooleybugger wrote on Oct 21, 2008 1:26 PM:
" Al V, it is likely your septic system could be failing and you should have it checked out by the county sanitarian. If you had done this just a couple of months ago, you would have probably been forced to install a $17,000 Level II system. Luckily for you, I searched the 1973 USGS Report (WRIR 00-4212) and it looks like way back then you might have had a well (#166 on Table 3 and on Plate 2) just behind your backyard that had nitrate levels ranging from 6 mg/L to 7.7 mg/L. So you should have your neighbors check their septic systems too. "
wonkerbean wrote on Oct 21, 2008 12:28 PM:
" I have had my water tested before this all came up about nitrates in the water. I already had a nitrate problem. I live in the valley. Al V. "
ruby wrote on Oct 21, 2008 12:18 PM:
" My compassion goes mostly to those who spent thousands of dollars needlessly on super septic systems and those, like rlabelin below - who SOLD their property because the County Commissioners CREATED AN EMERGENCY WHEN ONE DID NOT EXIST. Don't blame Spengler - put the blame where it belongs -squarely on TINSLEY AND MURRAY. Hunthausen is their pawn and seems to not understand anything.
Now is the time to write letters to the editor to get rid of Tinsley. "
Now is the time to write letters to the editor to get rid of Tinsley. "
mike fasbender wrote on Oct 21, 2008 12:18 PM:
" I read a report several months ago from a local hydrologist who had reviewed the nitrate studies cited in this article, and he likened the testing techniques to ambulance chasing. Wells that tested low in nitrates were not subsequently retested, but wells that tested positive for nitrates were. Doesn't take a mathematical genius to know this type of flawed testing will result in skewed numbers. I would love to see what the margin of error is in these statistical analyses. But, even if we go with the obviously flawed premise, and assume that nitrate levels actually are increasing, can anyone tell me if they have isolated the source? Again, to support their position, the anti-growth advocates will immediately tell you it is septic systems, but is it? A septic system will put out about 20 pounds of nitrates per year. Many farming operations put down 300-400 pounds of nitrate (via fertilizer) per acre per year. Alfalfa is a nitrate producer, and puts nitrates naturally into the soil. Livestock runoff puts nitrates into the soil. Lightning puts nitrates into the soil. Hmm, so which one is the culprit? Again it doesnt take a genius to see that a subdivision with 1 acre homes could actually exponentially decrease the amount of nitrates being put into the ground, 50 pounds per acre vs. 300 pounds per acre. That is quite a decrease.
I would urge the anti septic folks to take a trip up to the Highline. Not much population, very few septic tanks. Lots of big farms. And nitrate levels WAY above the EPA action level for municipal water systems of 10 ppm. Any guesses on the culprit?
It is extremely unfortunate that our local government leaders continue to use misleading and false information to promote their anti growth agenda. Their quotes in this article were almost beyond belief. They have been caught red handed lying to the public, and yet state that now they have been caught, others will use the fact they have been caught to mislead the public. Are you kidding me? Then, the inflammatory statement by Commissioner Murray was way over the line. We deserve better from our elected officials than to continue the fear mongering type of statements like how much poop do we want in our water. I can show you places in the world that do have poop in their water, and in those places people get sick and often die. Weve got excellent regulatory oversight with our Montana Department of Environmental Quality. For some to suggest that the commissioners are protecting our water quality with their fabricated emergencies to justify their emergency zoning is just ridiculous. I don't care what kind of BS our County Administrative Officer wants to feed you, we have pristine water quality here in Lewis and Clark County, and we will continue to have pristine water quality, with or without their so called emergency zoning.
As the commissioners go down, so will their smear campaign against Derek Brown that has been printed almost daily in this newspaper. Derek is a licensed engineer. Derek is honest. He would lose his license if he committed the type of atrocities our commissioners and county employees have. If this isnt vindication, I dont know what is. I believe this newspaper and a number of letter writers owe Derek an apology.
You can only lie to the public for so long eventually your house of cards will come tumbling down around you.
Thank you to Derek Brown for exposing their lies. "
I would urge the anti septic folks to take a trip up to the Highline. Not much population, very few septic tanks. Lots of big farms. And nitrate levels WAY above the EPA action level for municipal water systems of 10 ppm. Any guesses on the culprit?
It is extremely unfortunate that our local government leaders continue to use misleading and false information to promote their anti growth agenda. Their quotes in this article were almost beyond belief. They have been caught red handed lying to the public, and yet state that now they have been caught, others will use the fact they have been caught to mislead the public. Are you kidding me? Then, the inflammatory statement by Commissioner Murray was way over the line. We deserve better from our elected officials than to continue the fear mongering type of statements like how much poop do we want in our water. I can show you places in the world that do have poop in their water, and in those places people get sick and often die. Weve got excellent regulatory oversight with our Montana Department of Environmental Quality. For some to suggest that the commissioners are protecting our water quality with their fabricated emergencies to justify their emergency zoning is just ridiculous. I don't care what kind of BS our County Administrative Officer wants to feed you, we have pristine water quality here in Lewis and Clark County, and we will continue to have pristine water quality, with or without their so called emergency zoning.
As the commissioners go down, so will their smear campaign against Derek Brown that has been printed almost daily in this newspaper. Derek is a licensed engineer. Derek is honest. He would lose his license if he committed the type of atrocities our commissioners and county employees have. If this isnt vindication, I dont know what is. I believe this newspaper and a number of letter writers owe Derek an apology.
You can only lie to the public for so long eventually your house of cards will come tumbling down around you.
Thank you to Derek Brown for exposing their lies. "
rebrokerchris wrote on Oct 21, 2008 11:14 AM:
" Steelrider you took the worst of the two test results. Drake shows only a .2 ppm increase. Or maybe use the USGS study which is even lower. Kathy Moores opinion and studies are tainted and proved to be FALSE. An error? On something they have fought over for 2 yrs? Tinsley's time is about up. You must be just as naive. I can sell you some oceanfront property in Nebraska for a steal. "
rlabelin wrote on Oct 21, 2008 11:04 AM:
" I would definately roll up my sleeves drop my lunchbox and go to work on these clowns. "
rlabelin wrote on Oct 21, 2008 11:01 AM:
" That really bites. We had a nice property in the Helena valley. We wanted to put a nicer home on it to accomodate our growing family. We were denied our permit by Paul Spangler citing Flood plain regulations concerning existing septics and rising nitrate levels. So we were forced to sell our beutiful property to buy a house that would accomodate our growing family. It was a tremendous hardship, and apparently totally unnessesary. Shame on you Paul Spangler. Shame on you Commisioners. You needlessly hampered our future plans. And for what? Dont you people realize that it isnt all numbers. Its peoples futures and financial constraints and needs. I would give anything for five minutes alone (with no repercusions) with each one of the people that so negatively affected our lives at that time. "
wooleybugger wrote on Oct 21, 2008 10:40 AM:
" Let's see here, our government first fabricates an emergency, the government uses false data to support their emergency, they act on the emergency causing damages to many people here, and we now find out that the data doesn't support the emergency. Where have we seen this before? The fact is, Brown didn't only blow a hole through the county's report, he blew it out of the water. They knowingly misrepresented the facts to fool everyone, and for the most part it worked. If you are going to believe Kathy Moore now saying the nitrates increased from 1.25 to 2.88, why hasn't she been using those numbers before instead of using 0.5 to 4, and again, where does she get her numbers. The Drake-Bauder report uses numbers from 10 studies including 1,460 samples and came up with numbers you can actually see of 1.2 mg/l to 1.46 mg/l. This is an increase of 0.26 mg/L in 31 years, which is nothing; it is the opposite of an emergency! If you still think it is an emergency, try estimating how many years at our current growth rate it will take for the valley groundwater to even reach half of the safe limit of 10 mg/L. This is how long we have to start installing public sewer into the valley. Unfortunately it is hard to trust anything coming from the county anymore. The county is backpedaling as fast as they can and within the next couple of weeks just before the election, I predict they will pick an arbitrary number out of another report such as the TMDL report to try to justify their wrong position in which the public might be able to research before election time or might have to wait until after. Why werent they open about the exact source of their numbers? Brown had to dig the numbers out of the county, and even then they couldnt say where they got one of them. If they do come out with any other figures supporting their claim, this time we should demand they publish the exact page or table that their data came from and make sure the source is open to the public to view. The fact is, we know the county is covering up their lack of data to support their emergency. If they had any substantial data to back it up they would have produced it in the above interviews by Larry Kline. They are searching hard and fast now, and I will bet Kathy Moore is under 10 times more pressure by the commissioners today than she was before. One last thing, that statement by Commissioner Murray about valley people drinking poop has to be one of the most irresponsible, foolish statements I have heard all year from a public official (and there have been a lot of them); its just another scare tactic that has worked for them. "
skooter wrote on Oct 21, 2008 9:43 AM:
" I tend to agree with being super vigilant about water quality because I once lived in an area with contaminated wells with a large cancer cluster - its scary. That was more through industrial and ag pollution, but once it was done - there was no undoing it - they won't be drinking the water there for a century.
It is frustrating that this study was not done as accurately as it should have been. They've opened themselves to some serious issues and questions because their science was not 100% right. An outside & impartial audit/review of the data would help us all make a better decision. I like many, don't trust the basic idea of turning over the reigns of this position to someone who could benefit by their decisions now or in the future (whether you call him a developer or not). "
It is frustrating that this study was not done as accurately as it should have been. They've opened themselves to some serious issues and questions because their science was not 100% right. An outside & impartial audit/review of the data would help us all make a better decision. I like many, don't trust the basic idea of turning over the reigns of this position to someone who could benefit by their decisions now or in the future (whether you call him a developer or not). "
saber69 wrote on Oct 21, 2008 9:34 AM:
" If you listen closely you can hear the fat lady sing. Bye Bye Tinsley, bullstuff might get you to the top but it won't keep you there. "
intelligent reader wrote on Oct 21, 2008 9:06 AM:
" Just like with Nixon and Clinton, when elected officials lie to the public, those officials must be impeached!
What about the lawsuit regarding this "water quality emergency" that Lewis & Clark County had to pay $56,000.00 because of this precise issue??? What about the $18,000.00 per system that people had to fork out for a level II treatment system??? A class action lawsuit is in order! "
What about the lawsuit regarding this "water quality emergency" that Lewis & Clark County had to pay $56,000.00 because of this precise issue??? What about the $18,000.00 per system that people had to fork out for a level II treatment system??? A class action lawsuit is in order! "
steelrider wrote on Oct 21, 2008 8:47 AM:
" The average nitrate levels have increased from 1.25 ppm to 2.88 ppm, not as high as thought but still increasing. And there is still plenty of other contamination from inadequate septic systems. Derek Brown found a hole in the report and he will certainly use it to his special interests advantage to promote less restrictions on groundwater contamination. Personally, I think the citizens of Helena are way too smart for that. "
Your Neighbor wrote on Oct 21, 2008 7:57 AM:
" I relied on our staff, Tinsley said. I stand by our staff.
Don't stand by people that make consistent mistakes. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. "
Don't stand by people that make consistent mistakes. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. "
rebrokerchris wrote on Oct 21, 2008 3:45 AM:
" HAHAHA!!!! Caught up in their lies and misleading ways just as suspected. Yet they still have an emergency!? I"LL TAKE THE PROOF EINSTEIN! Hold the lies and misrepresentations. With a small side of integrity. See ya Tinsley, dont let the door hit you on the way out. "
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ruby wrote on Oct 26, 2008 12:59 PM:
At a minimum, the Commissioners SHOULD have directed Kathy to take a closer look -- and perhaps provide her more than three days -- to correct ALL of the errors. I say all of THEIR errors because I am convinced that Kathy was threatened with her job as well as elimination of her department if she did NOT manipulate facts.
I think the IR should conduct a thorough investigation of Commissioners Tinsley, Murray and Hunthauses, of Ron Alles, of Kelly Blake and of Kathy Moore. Also, I think it's important to take a look at how involved Tim Burton is on this whole issue. After all, the city is responsible for dumping more than 95% of the nitrates into the valley.
Everyone hates the word conspiracy, but I think you'll find a pyramid with Tinsley and Burton at the top. It's such a shame that we can't trust the very people we elect. And it's a shame that staff have been directed to provide incorrect information - at least that's what I believe the IR will find if they really look.
Thanks. "