They're issues on which most people already have their minds made: the war on terrorism and the U.S. presence in Iraq.

But proponents of two non-binding referenda regarding those topics are urging Helenans to think critically about those issues before voting this month and next in a mail-ballot election.

A ballot issue put forward by Helenans for Troops Home calls for the immediate, orderly and safe withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq. John Mundinger, a Vietnam combat veteran, is the group's spokesman.

A referendum written by resident John Forbes and others calls on Congress to fully support, without conditions, U.S. troops fighting the war on terrorism.

Though the focus of one referendum is the war on terrorism and not on the war in Iraq, the 4-year-old conflict dominated much of the conversation. Questions and comments also touched on economics, human rights, religion, democracy, imperialism, oil, the value of human life, war, peace, the past and, of course, the way forward.

About 75 people attended the forum at Carroll College, sponsored by the Helena International Affairs Council and Carroll College Students for a Just Society.

Carroll College political science professor Erik Pratt offered his take on the structure of the U.S. government and on national and international politics. He didn't take sides on either referendum.

The crowd was mostly calm, though occasionally audience members applauded and a few people voiced their opinions to the stage. Judging from the volume, more favored peace than continued war in Iraq.

Residents submitted questions on notebook paper. Here's a sampling of the topics and the responses from the three panelists.

On the war on terrorism:

Forbes: "Anyone who does not believe that we are under attack ... you're just not paying attention, it's just that simple."

Mundinger: "I don't think anyone in Helenans for Troops Home would argue that terrorism doesn't pose a threat to national security." He argued law enforcement, not the military, should be utilized.

Pratt: In a poll of 100 terrorism experts from across the political spectrum, 9 out of 10 agreed that "terrorism is not an existential force that can do the United States in. It is the reaction or unreaction associated with the war on terrorism that can do us in."

On the costs

of the Iraq war:

Forbes: He said he wasn't aware of any programs specifically cut because of the war, and noted it's Congress's job to allocated funding to different parts of the government.

"This is not an issue of cost or politics," he added. "It is an issue about the lives of our troops and those they are trying to save."

Mundinger: "A basic lesson of economics reminds us that societies cannot have both guns and butter ... apparently the current administration prefers guns." He referred to "butter" as education, health care and infrastructure.

Pratt: The current cost of war is probably $500 billion, plus an estimated $500 billion to $750 billion for the lifelong costs of returning veterans. A Columbia economist, before the war, estimated its total cost at $2 trillion. Pratt said the average cost per taxpayer is about $90 per year.

On Saddam Hussein:

Forbes: The human rights violations were so blatant ... We found that he had butchered hundreds of thousands of people. We were not aware of it until we got there."

Mundinger: "A monster of pretty much our own creation."

On concerns about unconditionally funding the U.S. military in the war on terrorism:

Mundinger: "We don't do unconditional funding for any programs in the United States." He noted the U.S. military is beholden to the public. "Unconditional funding essentially means the military is ... no longer responsive to our civilian government and can do what it wants."

Forbes: "Without conditions (the language used in the referendum) means without conditions and unconditionally is a different term." He wants to see an end of "micromanagement" by Congress and said President Bush, as commander-in-chief, has the right to oversee war operations.

On withdrawing from Iraq:

Forbes: "There would probably be a bloodbath on a scale that probably would rival Cambodia ... to abandon those people would be a crime against humanity."

Mundinger: "We have worked ourselves into a corner where there are no good options" but recommended engaging neighboring countries, increasing diplomacy and pulling the military back.

On Iran:

Forbes: The possibility of a U.S.-initiated war with Iran has been dreamed up by the media in order to sell papers. Israel is the real threat for war, he said. If Iran gets close to developing a nuclear weapon, Israel could initiate an attack.

Mundinger: "We need to re-engage the Middle East ... for the purposes of waging peace."

On Vietnam:

Mundinger: "I understand the perils of fighting a war that cannot be won."

Forbes: "We tried to give those people a chance. They didn't take it. They didn't want it."

On war and peace:

Mundinger: "(In war) we dehumanize the enemy while we glorify ourselves ... if we behave that way, our enemies behave that way." He said he'd like to see foreign policy based on the idea that all humans have "matchless value," as President Bush said in his second inauguration address.

Forbes: "This ... 'Can't we all be friends?' idea is a nice one, but it doesn't work over there. Something has to be done to move the markers. The United States' military does not fail. Others have failed them.

"We don't live (in Utopia) ... we live in a world ruled by force."

On referenda:

Pratt: "Referenda, I think, provide more of a reflective opinion rather than a public opinion (polls)," giving citizens a chance to think about and discuss an issue.

Forbes: The two initiatives aren't mutually exclusive. People may vote for one or the other, or vote for or against both. Citizens should be able to weigh in on the issue, and his group can accept the results.

Mundinger: "The authority for government is not vested in government, it's vested in us."

Voting, registration dates

Unregistered voters and those who've moved in the past year have until Oct. 9 to register at the county Clerk and Recorder's Office. Residents can register late and vote in the Clerk and Recorder's Office from Oct. 10 to Nov. 6 at 8 p.m. No traditional polling places will be used.

Reporter Larry Kline: 447-4075 or larry.kline@helenair.com.